Gifts Of Grace Pt 1 (ATP)

Gifts Of Grace Pt 1 (ATP)

How do I know what my spiritual gifts are?

Romans 12:6-8 (NKJV)

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

This is a good question and one that more Christians need to understand the answer to. What is my gifting? Before I answer this, however, we need to ask and answer a different question. For lengths sake, I’m actually going answer this question in three parts. The first question one should ask is, why do I want to know my gifting?

When you tell someone in this world they are gifted, it’s usually a compliment to them. People by nature always desire to be gifted because being gifted seems to give one bragging rights. Hollywood is an industry built on natural gifts and talents and they are exploited for many reasons. If you will pay attention to the gifted in the world, it will be easy to see self-inflation and pride at work. Everyone desires gifts, but often for the wrong reasons. You will hear people say things like, “This is my opportunity.” It is for self they seek to excel or be seen. Sadly, in Christianity, it isn’t much different.

We once knew a young man who felt a strong call to the ministry. He started pursuing this diligently in his teens, studying and reading up on it as much as he could. Later, he would enter ministry training that our churches offered. By the time he left the churches (and under wrong circumstances), he was saying things like, “I’m not given enough opportunity to practice my ministry.” Some may snicker at this but the truth is, most people who believe they are called to something and “gifted” think that gives them the right to use it.  This however, misses the entire purpose to the gifts and callings of God. Before I go further, I want to make sure that the one who asked this question knows that I am not accusing them of this attitude. A good question will give a good opportunity to teach, which is why I love this format of Faith Fix.

Now back to our young minister friend. 1 Timothy 3:6 warns us on the installation of ministers that they are “not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.” Before one is fit for ministry of any kind, or to exercise giftings to others, it is imperative to understand the purpose for them in the first place. The Bible refers to us as stewards. A steward is one who is given something to care for, but it belongs to another. Any true godly calling is a gift that is to be stewarded, carried out as the Giver has desired.

The world looks at gifts as opportunity for personal gain and enrichment. The Bible teaches us that God gives them for others. The world thinks it a shame that a gift goes unused. The Christian should know the only shame is not using it when it’s needed. When God doesn’t have need of the gift, we shouldn’t be looking to use it because though it may be on us, it isn’t for us.

Let’s see two examples of this in scripture. Romans 14:19 says, “Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.” 1 Corinthians 10:24 says, “Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.” I have found through experience, that God will at times give us abilities to allow opportunities to teach us. Some of these God given abilities we can possess yet never use. Stewardship of what is given is not using it at will but rather when it’s willed. If it’s not, then it’s stored away. Time and again God has shown us gifted people only to use the ungifted so that we understand the ability is not of us.  He does not need nor desire our ability, He desires our faithfulness. That is not to say God will never use abilities, it is to say He doesn’t rely on them and we shouldn’t either.

There are some who would have a problem with this, especially those who think worldly. “So and so is very talented, they should be used!” Let me ask you this though, why should they? They didn’t make themselves talented nor create their ability. The only thing that makes them special is that the Gift Giver gifted. The gift is nothing. Without being given, you don’t have. If God gives a gift, it is up to Him to decide if it should be used. I have seen and heard too many times of examples of God enabling a person to do things they weren’t ever able to do before. This my friends is exactly what Grace is.

Christians need to understand that our part in being gifted is faithfulness. It is faithfulness which we are rewarded for in this life and the next. God wants us good at following directions. What pleases Him is obedience not talent. God used mostly ungifted people in scripture to accomplish impossible tasks. This way the world understands, it’s not about them, it’s about Him. Human talents bring glory to man, albeit false glory. Godly gifts bring glory to Him, always pointing upward.

Be Blessed,

Pastor Jeff

Choose to Be Effective, Regardless of Others (ATP)

Choose to Be Effective, Regardless of Others (ATP)


The Bible says the Holy Spirit will show us things to come. How do we know if we know the outcome of something versus lacking faith. Example: I know someone who is not saved. Their life is a mess and they have a hardened heart. I pray for them but there’s a feeling in my spirit that some things will not change but I am not sure if that is the Holy Spirit showing me the outcome or if I’m lacking Faith and if it’s a lack of the Faith needed to help this person how do I change that?

Though this questions is multi-faceted, immediately, upon reading, I’m brought to the truth that Jesus didn’t heal everyone, not everyone He met or taught, listened, and many who He appeared to after He rose again didn’t even show up to the upper room. Let’s look at this in scripture.

Look at John 5:2-3, “Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches. In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water.” The Bible says there was a great multitude of sick people but if we continue reading we see that Jesus only went to one certain man. Why is this? Well, although scripture isn’t extremely clear on this, I believe we can find the answer when we look at the rest of Jesus’s ministry.  Remember what the Word says in Mark 6:5-6, “Now He (Jesus) could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He marveled because of their unbelief.” Many times, because of unbelief, people will go without their help.

Besides this, consider 1 Corinthians 15:6, which tells us that, after His resurrection, “He (Jesus) was seen by over five hundred brethren at once.” If we continue in the book of Acts however, we see that though Jesus commanded all those He appeared to , “not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father” (Acts 1:4), only 120 assembled together on that Day of Pentecost. Why is this? Because many will hear but won’t have an ear to hear. The direction will go in one ear and out the other.

In Ephesians 4, we see that the Lord set members in churches to be fed and taught, guided by pastors, in order to be edified and to grow and mature in the knowledge of God. Right after this, in Ephesians 4:17-18, the Word says,  “…you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart.” We know that without being properly connected and fed as God has set up for us, we will walk like the rest of the world walks. That is, in foolishness in mind with darkened understanding, and being alienated from truth because of hardened hearts.

Where does this blindness and hardened heart come from? We see this in 2 Corinthians 4:4, “whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.” It is the goal of the enemy to keep the blinders on this world, not allowing the light of the Word to shine on their understanding. Let’s backtrack a couple of verses. 2 Corinthians 4:1-3, “Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.”

I love this passage of scripture in The Message Bible. 2 Corinthians 4:1-4, “Since God has so generously let us in on what he is doing, we’re not about to throw up our hands and walk off the job just because we run into occasional hard times. We refuse to wear masks and play games. We don’t maneuver and manipulate behind the scenes. And we don’t twist God’s Word to suit ourselves. Rather, we keep everything we do and say out in the open, the whole truth on display, so that those who want to can see and judge for themselves in the presence of God. If our Message is obscure to anyone, it’s not because we’re holding back in any way. No, it’s because these other people are looking or going the wrong way and refuse to give it serious attention. All they have eyes for is the fashionable god of darkness. They think he can give them what they want, and that they won’t have to bother believing a Truth they can’t see. They’re stone-blind to the dayspring brightness of the Message that shines with Christ, who gives us the best picture of God we’ll ever get.”

Regardless of how hard it sometimes seems to reach people, we keep trying. Sometimes with some people our words, however, may not make the difference as much as our example. Besides this, often times we can sense that our prayers are not changing the outcome of a situation and we may even have a stop sign in prayer. This can be for many reasons, perhaps our prayers are motivated by emotions or personal relationships, perhaps we are praying for something we should be simply trusting God for, or we may even be more effective in this season praying in a different direction. You may be perceiving that those around you aren’t interested or willing to hear you. I myself have seen the same. Romans 10:8 tells us the Word is near the mouth, meaning salvation isn’t very far from anyone. Never lose heart and never lose faith. Every individual’s salvation is between them and God. Whether one chooses Him and another does not, it doesn’t change our direction.

Keep the truth on display, so that those who want to can see and judge for themselves in the presence of God. Those who want God won’t be left alone on our watch, but those who don’t want God we won’t ever be able to choose Him for them. Even God doesn’t force Himself or His salvation on anyone. Make your focus living for Him, guard against your own heart being hardened, and live by example in the light, mercy, and glory of God, letting your conduct be evident to all.

Be Blessed,

Pastor Renée

Am I Ready? (ATP)

Am I Ready? (ATP)

Matthew 24:44  says, “Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect”. How do we know if we are ready?! Or how do we get ready?!

The first thing we need to understand is that when Jesus left this earth He left His followers with expectation to not only see Him again, but to go with Him. John 14:3-6, “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.” Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” Christians need to keep this in remembrance, that our ultimate goal is to go with Jesus when He comes back for us. Too often we diminish the hope of this expectation. I believe part of being ready is the realization of how special and amazing that really is!

Besides this, we know the first step of securing that promise is accepting Jesus as Lord of our lives. Romans 10:9-10, “that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” No one can be ready without being born again.

Immediately, Ephesians 5:27 comes to my heart. It says, “that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.” When Jesus comes back for His church, He is looking for what the Word says is a glorious church. In this passage of scripture the Word compares Jesus’ relationship to the church with the relationship, or really covenant relationship of marriage, between a man and a wife. Imagine a bride on her wedding day and how the goal is to have the best appearance she can have as her husband meets her on that altar. Her gown is without wrinkle, her face without blemish, her conduct pure as a gift to her husband. When Jesus comes back to meet His bride, the church, He desires to see her in the best possible condition.  This word glorious means, held in great esteem, honorable, and free from sins.  It is with the washing of the water of the Word of God that we become glorious.

Philippians 2:5 also comes to my remembrance, which says, “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.” If we continue reading we see what that mind was like, taking the form of a bondservant, humbled, and obedient even unto death. Remember Romans 6:11 tells us, “Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Our life must reflect the fact that we have been born again into a new nature where our sins remain no longer. This is how we stay ready.

Now, the Word is clear, it takes our efforts to stay right before the Lord, to stay in that pure, honorable, sinless, (glorious) state. Galatians 6:9, “And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.” Ephesians 6:13, “Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.” Stay standing on His truth. Don’t grow weary while doing good, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). Romans 12:2, “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.”

Be Blessed,

Pastor Renée

How Will They Hear? (ATP)

Faith Fix: How Will They Hear? (ATP)

Almost every time I try to witness to someone, they bring up the fact that Christians don’t agree with homosexuality. I am sometimes able to convince them that we don’t hate people, but that we don’t agree with the lifestyle. I find this to be the hardest part about witnessing; not because I believe this or any other sin is ok, but it seems near impossible to convince people without using scripture, which they don’t believe in. My question is, how do I respond to someone who’s issue is they don’t believe the Word in the first place, whether on this topic or about any other sin? How do I even begin to effectively witness to someone?

Maybe the most frustrating thing once you discover truth, is taking that truth to the world. You have the answer, you know the way, and you try sharing it with others only to be rejected and ignored. This is the life of a believer.

As a pastor, this couldn’t be more true. Sometimes while I ponder my life’s work, I am tempted to be brought down because of the above truth. I deal with mainly “believers”, and yet so often they reject or downright hate what I’m telling them. People, Christian or not, have a tendency to lean toward convenience and dismiss that which crucifies the flesh. We all struggle with this because we are human. I live my life helping people with theirs, according to truth that God established, and yet will often find people hating me for it. More than once I have thought, let someone else do it. Then I remember.

I remember that for the many who will reject what you say, there will be some who embrace it. I did, you did. Out of maybe hundreds I have ever witnessed to that refuse it, I can point to some who ran with it and their lives forever changed. Look at it like this. If you were mining for diamonds, you will dig deep into the earth as the most precious and valuable are never laying on the surface. Out of tons of dirt and rock one may remove from the ground, only a minute amount will be desirable at all. Even once you find the most precious, they are only in their rough form, needing lots more work to become priceless. So is witnessing. Most you ever share your faith with will reject you, they did with Jesus himself. You however, are looking for diamonds. You keep looking because what you’re looking for you cannot put a price on.

Immediately, when I read this question, this scripture came to my heart, 1 Peter 3:15. It says, “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.” There are several parts to this that should be considered. First, sanctify the Lord in your hearts. To be sanctified is to be made holy, or you could say set apart. The first step in effective witnessing is setting God apart in our heart. He has to be precious and special to us before we will ever make Him so to others. He can’t just be merely another part of your life. You must be excited and stirred, with a true understanding of what He has done for you. A tragedy in our faith is that there are many who live defeated because they don’t embrace the truth, and therefore project that on God and to the world. The world doesn’t  want a God that simply adds rules but doesn’t really do anything good and truthfully, I can’t blame them.

Secondly, in the Amplified Bible, it goes on to say, “have a logical defense.” Sadly, many Christians never take the time to really understand their faith. I ask myself constantly the questions about my faith that others might ask. Then I ask the Lord, seek scriptures, and listen to commentaries to find the answer. When asked, I then have a logical defense. As far as the question specifically of homosexuality there are some ways you could approach this. Number one, the majority of the Bible is not about what sin not to commit, rather it’s about how to find and get closer to God. I would start here, and then go on to say that there are many things that the Bible calls wrong but it is because of their destructive nature and not because God doesn’t want us to  enjoy life. I would turn it around with things like what Psalms 16:11 says, “You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.” Talk about how God wants only good for us and then share the wonderful things He has done in your life.

The truth is, that may not be enough. Some people will never let you get past that one thing. Some will just desire to argue or simply hate you for it. I have had people go from loving me greatly one second, finding out that I’m a Christian (without me even witnessing), to downright hating me in the next. In such cases, you will not be able to change their mind. The only thing that you can do at that point is pray for them.

I want to point out something more about the above scripture in 1 Peter. Directly after we read vs 15, it says some interesting things. 1 Peter 3:16-17, “having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.” First, we are told to have a logical defense, then immediately after that we will probably see persecution. This is the persecution and often the cross we are told to bear. As hard as it may be to feel this or deal with it, we need to hold onto the fact that their are special blessings for Christians who endure this type of suffering. Blessings set apart that can be received no other way.

The heart of all that is said here is the same heart that God has. Be willing and ready to share with anyone at any point because this may be their only opportunity. If we are faithful to this, God will use us to get every precious diamond that is possible. Witness from your heart, but understand your faith. Don’t premeditate exactly what you will say, but get full of God so that when the time comes, you will do so rightly. Great fruit (many coming to the Lord) and great blessing will come your way. You never know when you will be the example of Jesus that someone needed.

Be Blessed,

Pastor Jeff

Too Little, Too Much (ATP)

Too Little, Too Much (ATP)

Sometimes I get overwhelmed with all these things I feel I need to do – Things like: Ok I need to pray an hour every day, I need to also read the word and study the Bible and I also need to spend time in worship and if I don’t do one or another- One of these areas I can’t be effective in. All these things I feel I need to check off get overwhelming and then I shut down and I do none of them except prayer and not for an hour.

It’s amazing to me as I consider the life of Jesus, that He did all He was here to accomplish and really in only 3 1/2 years! Sometimes I think I don’t have a enough time to brush my teeth properly! (I do)

Often when people who are really hungry for God, sit and hear instruction, they get overwhelmed just like you. I have and do myself. I’ve been in services before where I am getting so much that I stop taking notes and think, I can’t possibly retain anymore. My yard in the spring reminds me of this. Though we live on top of a hill, in the spring there is so much water that it ends up sitting in puddles on top of the lawn. It’s because it’s over-saturated and can’t receive all there is. Now that water is well needed for the growing season, however too much at one time cannot permeate the soil. When we desperately want to be in God’s will, we do this. We oversaturate ourselves with all that good instruction and find ourselves drowning in what we can’t absorb.

If you try and live perfect, you will soon learn you fall short. And that is because it is you who are trying. God allows us to see our weaknesses, not to make us feel bad or to punish us, but to remind us of our total and utter reliance, and need for Him. Recently while feeling overburdened with all I have to do , I sought the Lord for scripture. I said, “God, give me scripture to see myself with.” I needed reminded of some things. He led me to 2 Corinthians 12:9. “And He said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”

What we have to keep in mind is that the Lord will not overburden us. (Meditate on Matthew 11:28-30.) What God desires is a relationship with us. We have to remember to keep that in proper order. I like to start with how I maintain healthy relationships with people and then I use that to build one with my Heavenly Father. If there are other things we need to do, He will show us as we look to Him.

The first thing we do is make Word time a regular thing. Without a foundation of the Word, all these other things will fall apart. I want to repeat that because the Word should be the first and foremost thing in a believer’s life. This is part of the importance of the local church. God gives us direction for our lives every time we meet. I tell people, don’t worry about reading the whole Bible this week. Start with what is taught on Sundays. I have never been surprised that when people start missing excessive times of church, their lives start breaking. I am aware if I miss one week, which is why I make sure I hardly ever do.

If your were in school and knew there was going to be a test, you would take the things taught in class and study those intently. It’s so funny to me that Christians don’t realize the importance of that in Church. If you’re in the right church, God will use the pulpit to prepare you for your life. Take what is taught and meditate on it throughout the week. That doesn’t mean you can’t get into more, but do that if you have time. Starting here will be a good jumping off point and will not overburden you. When the Word is mixed with revelation (from preaching and teaching), it will bring you into a greater understanding of Him, and thus that relationship will grow.

We need also to look at instruction right. With a vehicle there are a lot of different things you can do. You rarely however do them all at once. When I need to go forward I use that knowledge. When I need to go backward, I use that knowledge. If I need four-wheel drive, still again, different knowledge. They may be similar in usage but there are differences. I use what is needed when it is needed. The same thing goes with the things of God. The Word, church, prayer, praise, worship, all these things build our relationship with God, you just use what you need to in the time it’s needed.

When it comes to prayer, I have a few things to say. The Bible never instructs us on specific amounts we should pray other than to pray always. Praying always means that it should be a common part of everyday, but we have to know prayer doesn’t always look like you are on your knees with folded hands. Sometimes it is as you go, as you drive to, walk into or around Walmart, for example. I know it is preached in our circles that you should strive for an hour a day, but the Bible simply does not tell us to do this. You have to remember that when something is preached, examples are given to encourage us up higher but that does not necessarily mean it’s a hard and fast rule. The heart of what is being preached is, pray more! Make it important! We must also understand that praise and worship are also forms of prayer. If we spend time with God, He will show us what is needed.

We also need to know this, sometimes we do need to give up to go up. If we are honest with ourselves, there are times we could do better. Maybe the kids can’t be in every sport. Maybe you can’t watch four hours of TV, maybe only three. We have to look to our own lives to know which areas we can do better in without being overburdened by guilt. Remember even Jesus took time away from work to rest. Vacations and down days are Godly. Also, keep our lives before the Lord and ask Him to reveal areas we need to do better in.

Jesus was balanced and if we relax, trust Him, and heed His Word, we will find balance for our lives. Don’t try to drive forward and backward at the same time. Relax, follow His Word the best you can, pray and seek Him and God will work all you need when you need it. Then we will be effective and truly enjoy the presence of our Father!

Be Blessed,

Pastor Jeff

What’d They Say Anyway? (ATP)

What’d They Say Anyway? (ATP)

How do you know you’re really praying in the spirit and not just babbling out of your own flesh?

This is a question that perhaps everyone who has ever been filled with the Holy Spirit has asked at some point. This is probably because most people assume that if it comes from the spirit, then it must come on you automatically. That is partly why 1 Corinthians 14:14 says, “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.”

Being filled with God’s Holy Spirit does not mean that when you pray in the spirit, He is speaking through you. The Holy Spirit empowers us to pray, but He will not make us do it. The act of praying in the spirit is not praying from God’s Spirit but rather praying from ours. Notice what the verse above says, “if I pray…”. If I pray is the action on my part.

If I gave you a book written in French and asked you to read it aloud, you could probably do so . Yet, unless you knew French, you would not understand it. Praying in the spirit is the same. Our spirit prays, but our minds do not understand. I’ll get back to that in a moment. Ephesians 6:18 says, “praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—“. Again we see here the instruction is for us to pray, meaning we must put forth the effort. We see over and over in the Word that it is of our effort to put forth the words.

So how do we know it’s not gibberish? The truth is, we can only know this by faith. As with all things with God, there is always an element of faith attached. What happens when we pray in tongues is the Holy Spirit hooks up with us, and guides us as we pray. Remember the Holy Spirit guides us by that still inward witness. Romans 8:26 tells us, “Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.” As we develop our prayer life things begin to make more sense. Not that you will understand every tongue, but you will begin to sense the Holy Spirit guiding and directing you. Eventually as you pray in the spirit, understandable words will bubble up for you to speak or revelation of something will come. This is what we call praying things out.

Some people erringly claim that in Acts when they spoke in other tongues they simply spoke in another language they did not know. If however, you read scripture carefully you will see this is not the case. What happened was, to those who were open to God, the Spirit interpreted the tongue in their own language. This was a sign to those who didn’t yet know the Spirit. Some who stood by (the critical ones) only heard gibberish and thought it was drunkenness. That happens today when unbelievers hear tongues.

Now, what I wanted to get back to was this, 1 Corinthians 14:13 instructs us, “Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.” Though the Bible says tongues seems unfruitful to our minds, we should ask God to interpret as the Spirit wills. We must remember, God wants us to know His will. If we only pray in unknown tongues and never understand, we cannot know anything. As I said before, when you pray in the spirit words will seem to surface. Start speaking those words out. You may only get one word and it may repeat but that is ok. As you speak it out you begin speaking out mysteries. You may not know in the moment what that is for or you may. There has been many times where I have prayed in the spirit and gotten nothing in that moment, then later, as I went about my business, clarity or direction came. Those were things I prayed out and they were connected to the time spent praying.

Remember, once we are saved or filled with the spirit, the things that come after we choose to walk out by faith. As we do God brings more to us. I am more blessed today than when I was first saved because faith has brought me further in God. Praying is no different. When I was a child I prayed now I lay me down to sleep and today I pray out the very mysteries of God. As we grow in God and faith, His ways become more solidified in us. Faith is a muscle that needs to be worked out. As we do we develop into exactly what God intended us to be. This is where we will be fruitful in everything we do!

Be Blessed,

Pastor Jeff